17. CBD for Sleep

CBD for Sleep. Today show’s with Molly McLaughlin of sleepisaskill.com. It’s a great conversation around one of the most common things that people struggle with with in today’s world, which is struggle with sleeping.  Molly provides some great Insight. We talk about cannabis and CBD for sleep, but also she shares several things from her experience around helping people achieve better sleep that I think our audience will find quite valuable. So I hope you enjoy the show today. Thank you.

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Hi Molly. Hi, how are you? Good. How are you? Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you. This is awesome. I’m so glad that we were able to set this up. Oh amazing. Well, I’m very excited to be a part of the the the kickoff the launch. So that’s awesome.

Thank you for joining. I’m excited to talk to you.

Yeah, me too. So this will be great very cool.

So let’s just dive into it, right. So how do we tell me about how you you came to incorporate cannabis or CBD into sleep therapy? I refer to them interchangeably because obviously CBD is cannabis and I think that’s helped helpful to people in terms of understanding and destigmafying this whole thing. But how did you incorporate that into your expertise around sleep? Yeah great question.

So probably helpful to know where you know my interest in sleep in general came from and basically the the company the creation of sleep is a skill started from really solving my own problem with my with my sleep. And that was that for many many years. I just thought of myself as a lots of labels a bad sleeper a short sleeper and Night Owl sleep anxious all these sort of things around my sleep and but I didn’t think to too much of it throughout most of my life and till I went through a period of insomnia for around three to four months straight while traveling internationally and it just really was one. Of my kind of my personal rock-bottom moments and how you know really was meant. Yeah and it how was really manifested was through that just inability in perceived inability to sleep and that’s where that sleeping xiety label came up from just I began to actually like the sun would be setting and my heart would start beating faster of like what is tonight going to look like I’m not gonna be able to sleep and all this sort of stuff and it was a really kind of scary and disempowering time in my life and when I went To the doctors in Croatia, I could even speak the language and so I’m going in there with Google translate and and I leave with a prescription of their version of Ambien and it was kind of in that moment of okay. So what is the plan here? What am I going to be doing to actually, you know ensure that I’m not taking this sort of stuff over the long term, but it didn’t there wasn’t a ton of guidance on the ground at least four in my experience of what to do and I was actually looking for a Just like, you know support groups or they have someone to speak to about like what do you do in these situations? So in Flash Forward was able to really go down the rabbit hole of fixed and really correcting what was not working for my sleep and then transforming that into now measurably have a lot of different trackers around my sleep and being able to now quantifiably having some of the best sleep that I’ve ever had and certainly now being able to work with so many other people on that so

Through that process really what I became really fascinated by was Cronin biology and in the science of time and understanding that our circadian rhythm is something that exists on a spectrum. It’s either weak or strong circadian rhythm and that many of us are you know, certainly in the west arguably finding ourselves more on the weak side of our circadian rhythm that certainly was me and was living really upside down to the normal schedules of you know, what we would look to create as Colonel creatures meeting that remains a week Rhythm week rhythm is means no sleep. We circadian leads to lack lack of sleep still a week circadian rhythm simply kind of points to that. Your body is not at a place where just count on ably you’re getting tired at the same time you’re waking up at the same time sort of intrinsically and that your hormones are all kind of functioning so that your cortisol is rising in the morning like almost natural coffee and then your melatonin and then dropping in the evening the cortisol and then in the Names shifting over to said nice steady rise and melatonin so that you can drift off to sleep easily and effortlessly but many of us don’t have sort of that strong functionality as much as we used to have in hunter-gatherer days or certainly just even prior to electricity really then the ability to augment our days so artificially so what happens then is our hormones can go amok our glucose levels can go all over the place. Our moods can shift in our ability to just know ourselves to go to bed at around the same time and wake up around the same time doesn’t really happen. Whereas if we have a strong circadian rhythm, then it’s almost just automated for us. It’s those friends of ours that might you know you go out and then they always still wake up at the exact same time or they’re always still going to bed at the same time despite what’s going on around them. So we’re looking to improve the strength of that circadian rhythm.

So that a lot of the thinking is taken out of the conversation, so So for me when realizing that this circadian rhythm entrainment element plays such a big factor into the results of our sleep then one. I was really empowered because there’s so many behavioral changes that I could make to make a difference and to then being able to get connected to a measurement system of you know, what are my results around my sleep but on the conversation around CBD or cannabis then one of the things is that I found to be really really helpful with that is that it can provide a natural option to have kind of a healing process around our relationship to looking for something external for our sleep. So for many of us and certainly I was you know, no different that I was looking for like the quick fix or the supplement or the pill we’re going to go to sleep now help me go to sleep now and what has been really helpful with CBD is then that can provide also a number of benefits from the anti-inflammatory side of things pain management side of things is on the number of clients that have it’s a multi-faceted problem around their sleeps and they might have some whatever arthritis or endometriosis or all these are the things that bring up pain flare-ups that can impact their Sleep Quality. So then having that natural sort of anti-inflammatory, but also its ability to work on the endocannabinoid system. And The rhythms that it helps regulate can be really a place for people to stand that’s separate from going straight to hypnotics or benzodiazepines, which a lot of people find themselves on with sleep issues. And it also has been something that people have been able to utilize to help wean themselves off in the long sort of tapering process for people that are have been on those type of drugs for a long time to give them something that can help assist with that is a big deal.

Yeah, absolutely. I excuse me. I’m going to meet while I cough. 

Oh, yeah, go ahead then there and well, thank you for that.

I was just going to say I’ve been in involved in the CBD world for about five years now and I was fortunate indeed to be exposed to you know, just thousands and thousands of people and around and their experience, you know, anecdotally around CBD in particular and Firstly the number one thing people talk about when they start taking CBD is that I sleep better. It just it’s just by Far and Away the number one thing that people say even if that’s not what they’re taking it for 

right and people are always kind of worried about that because they’re like, well, I don’t I don’t necessarily want to go to sleep in the middle of the day, but my pain is in the middle of the day and it’s like well, that’s not how it works. Right? It doesn’t put you to sleep.

Can you elaborate on that a little bit 

Yeah, so really great point because Snot innately a sedative or you know, it doesn’t have that kind of quality to it instead what it seems to help with particularly for a lot of the clients that I’m working with. Is that kind of low-grade anxiety or sympathetic, you know kind of nervous system response throughout the day and going into the evening. And of course that is counter to what we were, you know, discussing around what we want to kind of cultivate of that drop in cortisol and rise in melatonin into the evening to kind of Set the stage for sleep to appear because you know no sleep is as a process by which we’re kind of lowering the Hertz output in our brains to then shift over to this weird, you know Twilight state that our brains going to when we sleep and to do that really does require a relaxing or relaxation process of the body in prep for that. So things like cannabis and CBD that can help mitigate. A gate some of the anxiety that we might be experiencing throughout the course of the day can often help make a difference to bringing that cycle back into place, and then there’s still a lot of unknowns around CBD in the its function and I keep saying CBD and of course, I know some people will be referring to cannabis as in for their results with their sleep depending but certainly there’s still questions with the endocannabinoid system. And how that all works were still there still exploration and the understanding of that but it seems to very much be a rhythm based element. So understanding that we can help normalize some of that Rhythm process and some of the benefits that seemed to come from things like CBD for that or really really not to be overlooked. Yeah. I think It ultimately it comes down to or may come down to who knows we need.

We need two more science to understand it right but in my my This is based on my experiences. It comes down to it’s basically helping your body. Get back to its natural as you say Rhythm and that’s why people think well, how can it be such a miracle solution for so many things right? I don’t believe that there’s no way that it can possibly nothing works for that many different things and you know, the I’ve always kind of thought well, it’s because different people have different outcomes based on the same sort of You if we were deficient perhaps in cannabinoids, then maybe your ability to handle anxiety is affected. Whereas my my ability to sleep might be affected versus somebody else’s ability to deal with recovery or pain in the knees or joints, right? It’s we don’t know but what we do know is that all of these things seem to have a common denominator in that cannabis is helping restore the body back to its basic. You know Central Point they call it homeostasis, right? But it’s you know what I don’t really understand how to really say that in a way that people could understand it better. But other than I love the term Rhythm right? So I guess just talked to me about that. What do you what is your reaction there? 

Yeah, so there are some interesting. So we’re still lacking on the number of studies to really be able to point to and I’m hoping that in the future the more and more different states are Realizing the u.s. Anyway that the more and more will start to see money being put towards the ability to have some of these more larger scale studies. But even on some of the smaller scale studies, there’s been evidence supporting the influence of circadian rhythms on the level of endocannabinoids and just the ability to regulate the amount of cannabinoids in the in the body. So the there seems to be this Clear Connection and almost seemed like they really worked together in a puzzle piece. And so what seems to happen is that that Rhythm can get strengthened by the use of CBD and course again still need more studies need more and a lot of what we’re seeing to with people even you know, I had I’ve had a few CBD experts on the podcast and speaking to some of their approach with again.

Probably guys that I keep saying CBD only because of course Times cannabis is in that conversation, of course to but some of these experts will often do just a lot of trial and error with each individual patients. So then testing them with different levels that will work for them. And of course, there’s bio individuality with each person but finding that sweet spot and still we do have a lot of like anecdotal evidence around the impact. So for me with my clients, I have a lot of everyone that I work with is has to wear a sleep tracker of some sorts. So right now I’m in did that everyone has the or ring, you know as of 2020 and so we can at least see changes in heart rate HRV respiratory rate it, you know body temperature and a few other markers. So that gives us some indication of if things are kind of trending in the direction we want or not. So when we do see people being able to have something That helps mitigate the anxiety elements than what we tend to see is a change in HRV and that’s that heart rate variability, but that’s a really important important marker in this conversation because it points to a regulation of our or the state of our autonomic nervous system. It’s one of the few readouts that we are metrics that we can kind of point to count on ably that can can deliver that sort of information. So so understanding that can be helpful of seeing are we trending? I kind of away from that’s the sympathetic sympathetic response more regularly or the dominancy of that. So I would say that those are some of the ways to that you can search on the ground sees this making a difference for you and dosage and the trial and error that goes into that. Well, it’s tough. 

Are you do you ever run into anyone that has Like a side effect that goes the wrong way like for example, obviously with THC, you know THC could keep people from sleeping. I could see that happening, you know, depending on the heart rate and you know how people may get you know, and and and on the strain, you know, if you going with something that’s more, you know, you know sativa terpene e that kind of thing that’s going to theoretically give you more energy but absent of that with CBD perhaps you ever see anybody that can’t sleep. Taking CBD for sleep. 

So what I will say is that one of the things that I’ve started to do with people is having them first focus on the day with CBD and the reason I say that is just because from the psychological perspective some of the people that I’m having do that tend to be dealing with anxiety in general. Anyway, and of course how our days look tend to be mirrored in our nights and so how we’re breathing throughout the day tends to Be reminiscent to 2 degree unless there’s some abnormality to our breath with sleep apneas or obstructed breathing.

But for the most part if we run anxious during the day then we tend to see those kind of same characteristics while we’re sleeping. So I often will start people with CBD for sleep during the day so that we can start to manage some of the daytime anxiety because one of the things I’ve seen for some really anxious patient or not patients, you know clients for me that I’m working with is That they if they are taking into the night and something new anytime. There’s something new there can be the tendency of kind of hyper vigilance on that thing and especially if it’s a new if they’re very new to this idea of cannabis or CBD for sleep then they might think oh the I’m having some sort of response and it’s oftentimes. So if we can normalize the act of having that during the day and limit sort of that anxious, you know problem so that they’re not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Even just like one or two times of having it in the beginning and the newness effect of that. Then we can kind of edge them in and then taking into the evening because that would be one of the things that I have seen that hasn’t worked is that you know, if they’re very new to this idea no matter how many times you seem to say like, okay. This is not going to have a psychoactive component to it. It’s going to you know do this and the other just the what perceives for some people is like The Fringe nature of it or what they’ve heard around these things and they think still Things going to happen and then they get even more riled up if that makes sense.

So totally makes sense. It’s yeah, so some people, you know, create the out their own response somehow, right and it subconsciously right and our brain is so powerful in this conversation and then because sleep can certainly take some time. Once you’ve gotten yourself riled up. I always speak to this one Gadget that I think is really interesting called a BBB not because of the Gitano necessarily, but because it speaks to problem with people that have chronic insomnia that one of the measurable things that you can tend to point to is a rise in the brain temperature and the temperature in the brain from chronic insomniacs of having difficulty kind of regulating that thermoregulation and cooling down before bed. And we really need to one of the cues to go to sleep is that the body temperatures cooling the heart rates lowering all these things are happening. But when we are all you know, jazzed up and anxious that we can often have the opposite and then if you flare up anymore overthinking, sometimes that can further lead to just you know hours of it being difficult to fall asleep. So just normalizing that this is really not going to have that effect like, you know, testing out during the day when you’re you don’t have something on the line of like, oh, I gotta sleep has been one kind of tactic that I’ve used for. People to have it not be such a scary thing right now. 

That’s great. Do you do how do you approach like your clients? Like did I mean obviously it’s there’s an individualized approach. I’m assuming to that but how do you how do you tell them what they need to do first? Right because I’m sure I mean sleep is a skill is the name of your your website in your approach, right? So, where do you start? How Do you think about that? 

Oh, yeah, so we have two overarching Frameworks that we work from one just being kind of a general place to stand that there is what we call a sleep tripod. So kind of with any workability of any tripod having three legs that are kind of all functioning within in agreement with each other one being psychology one being physiology and one being environment and if any of those are kind of out of alignment then of course the tripod won’t stand quite as Well, so kind of restoring workability in all legs of that area or just having the knowingness that one leg might be particularly more out of alignment than others. Very common examples of that is from the psychology perspective some things happen. There’s a divorce there’s a you know, lost their job empty nest syndrome, whatever something happens and so we can address that part of the the Paradigm, but then also from the physiological perspective. If you know there’s certain hormones that we might test for blood work that we can look into. So if there’s certain clear sort of deficiencies in vitamin D magnesium iron issues all these sort of things that might impact our sleep results. So if we can start to restore that to so then that can all play a role within the psychological perspective and then I would make the argument that the environment piece for most people certainly in the west and the 21st century. Tend to have a lot of things that are happening in their environment. They might not be aware of that are likely impacting their sleep. And so we go to work on that and then so that’s the overarching framework and then the second framework piece of the puzzle is what we call circadian rhythm entrainment. And so that in training process is, you know, you can point to it in chronobiology against that science of time to entrain our circadian rhythm.

The most important things is our relationship to light And so then that’s the top rung. And the reason for that. Is that our Master Clock in our brain, the suprachiasmatic nucleus is directly connected to our eyes and the eyes are part of the the Q point. So understanding that the body is taking in this information. So they’re known as time givers and the number one most important timegiver. Is that light and then the second one is temperature. So first we’re dealing with the getting the light right and kind of our environment and how so many of us have it very much opposite and that’s certainly what I had for so many years I would wake up late and it would be sort of in dim lighting. I might have a headache or whatever I’m sluggin around and then you know, and so really kind of just like dimmed out and then I turn on all the lights right as the Sun is setting and so it’s the exact opposite of what we were meant to really be encountering. In a lot of ways, you know, we have to think all about and strategize, you know, just based on our environments of how to bring this back. But really it’s more of a simplistic thing that we’re harkening back to because of course in hunter-gatherer days the Sun would rise and then that Q of the sun of the light along with its coupling of the rise in temperature in the environment those two Q’s would then really act as the clear alarm clock that would naturally sort of wake us up. Cuz we were with working with in nature. We were outside in nature so much more whereas versus today, you know, the World Health Organization released in 2016. Then an estimate that the average person in the west was spending over 90% of their days inside indoors and I was before a pandemic before, you know, even ready Oculus sir. Will you know VR and all these sort of things that are so likely it’s probably even higher numbers now. So having said that with the problem that Creates is that we’re kind of becoming the zoo animals that are totally devoid of those natural cues that kept us on time and on track for so many years and now we’re kind of off that and now we’re indoors we even when you’re behind Windows, it changes the structure from a physics physics perspective of what light then does from a signaling queue for their hormones on top of that the ability to stay inside and just turn our Nest or whatever thermostat and to you know keeping this regulated. And time temperature was very different than what we would have ever been accustomed to outside.

So all of those things that you throw in daylight savings time. Hey now it’s the worst and you know, so each each state you’re going into might have a different thing where you I’m over in the west coast right now. 

I’m actually in Vegas which has non stop light. So I’m excited about that. But you travel we just went to Utah the other day and then travel over the border and then your have a different time zone go to Arizona different time zone. I mean, it’s just crazy. Yes, but I’m originally from Maine and New York. So I’m used to the you know, very dark and early early Darkness cold Winters and what have you so I hear it all but yeah, exactly. So all of those things really, you know, cause a real problem and if you’re where you living geographically makes a big difference if you’re above the 37th parallel North which is basically, you know cuts the line right across like callow mid, California.  you know. Across that’s what America yeah, exactly. And so if you’re north of that then going into December for the average person, it becomes more and more difficult Beyond throughout the entire course of the winter to create enough that vitamin D that we need which really X is a hormone, but it’s a big Conversation Piece for a Sleep Quality because vitamin D is very important as a precursor run and serotonin and melatonin. So if we don’t have all those things in place, then you can find your having insufficient melatonin. In and then when it what happens when it gets dark at like 4:30, then many of us just you know flip on all of our lights. And again, it’s just like upside down. So melatonin is actually known as the hormone of Darkness. So if you want to produce more melatonin and have the ability to fall asleep easier and not wake up throughout the course of the night then we really want to make friends with darkness and so many of us have a, you know, very deprived of true Darkness.

Throughout the course of the night and you know might sound like a little thing or certainly that would have been my thinking like a light who cares like what’s the supplement to take her what have you but it really is huge huge huge and it’s something that even you know, NASA has done tons of studies around to help optimize for their astronauts while they’re in space and the sun’s rising and setting every 90 minutes while they’re, you know, traveling in the space shuttles and so becomes a big deal to how do we maintain a strong circadian rhythm in those type of environment? So what we can do here is then the most simple element is having as bright as possible days and as dim as possible nights and of course when you’re sleeping total black, so but the dim nights and the bright days seem to be a real problem for many of us from a habits perspective of how to make the time and our days to actually get ourselves outside to be exposed and you really want to all over as much of their skin as you can possibly. We expose because those photoreceptors in virtually every cell of your body or getting a sense of what time it is and that’s keeping certain organs on time hormone production on time. It’s you know, a big kind of fall out and then the second part like I said of that Riddler that that framework that we’re operating within is that temperature that’s super interesting about the temperature is that there’s all these other things that will influence your temperature probably the one of the most challenging for a lot of my clients is mealtime. And so the time of when you eat will impact the temperature of your body. So if you’re eating late, which is what I used to do, especially if you have alcohol paired in there too, then you can anticipate a measurable change in your body temperature and then that can be a Mist kind of cue to the body of what time it is and when to go to bed and shift workers can use this to their advantage, you know, if they know they need to stay up and are tired they can eat and then the body will be kind of confused because it feels like okay. Well if we just ate we probably need that energy. So presumably we’re staying up but many of us now just do that kind of second nature as part of our evening routines without thinking of it.

Yeah, totally. Wow. That’s thanks for sharing that that’s that’s really good stuff and a lot of value there in terms of helping people understand that it’s not just as simple as taking CBD for sleep, right? I mean, there’s other things you have to do and what You touched on it with a lot of different supplements there right magnesium and vitamin D and some other things that you mentioned. What about just diet diet and exercise right of how does that play into to sleep patterns and The rhythms that you’re looking for? 

Yeah great points.  So exercise is another one that will influence that body temperature. So one just ensuring the timing of our exercise is conducive to that strengthening our circadian rhythm so ideally, Doing that earlier on in the day and certainly the part of the goal is in the evening doing a run, you know, at least four hours before bed. Ideally, although I have had some clients that just added the nature of the scheduling of their days. They found themselves going a bit going to work out right after work, you know again, I know this since a pandemic a lot of things have changed for many people but assuming that schedules kind of stay the same that they’re working out after after work and then they’re finding Elves under lots of blue light, you know, I’ll highly like stimulated environment. And so what can happen when we kind of just shift the workouts just a bit to make it a little bit earlier. We never want to you know have people have the sense that they’re cutting out the workout because it’s a big deal for normalizing our hormones and kind of feel good response and was a lot and blood flow and all kinds of great things that then can produce stronger. A higher quality sleep when and we see that the athletes so, you know, we don’t want to at all, you know have people not working out because of the timing but then what time can we move it to or shift things around so that you can make it a little bit earlier on so then you can also benefit from the thermal regulatory response of that so that you’re getting your body temperature up during the day and then dropping in the evening because that now you’re like allowing for more cooling response. So doing that. And then also for the meal timing one of the things that will suggest for that is something called circadian rhythm intermittent fasting so and it’s just like a fancy series of words to basically mean that you’re aiming to eat between sunrise and sunset. And naturally. I know that can be a little challenging certainly in the winter.

So people, you know, sometimes it sunsetting whatever for 30 or whatever so during that time but you’re still looking to have it be as coupled as close as possible to that so and part of the measurable elements because I again, I like to even though I’m knocking it sounds like I’m knocking Tech from a perspective of now we have all these problems because we were indoors and Bubba, but at the same time, I think it’s really exciting because the more we have people measuring some of the things that we’re doing the more they’re in the game of improving some of these things. So one measurement system that you can use is a continuous glucose monitor and then If you were to do that for 14 days or one month, you can get a really good insight into for many people the the highly unstable nature of their glucose and what that has an effect on your sleep is really profound. So if you’re someone that finds that you’re waking up a lot through the night, then one of the first things that we tend to look at is how is your blood sugar because when we have the instability and then the crashes that can happen during the night while we’re sleeping the body can rule. Respond with adrenaline and cortisol and then those are the type of wake-ups that often you wake up and you’re like up and you have that moment of like I’m not falling back asleep. Those can often be kind of related to blood sugar. So if that is something that you’re dealing with then that can be one of the Band-Aids 221 identify is that you and to to kind of mitigate the that response is that you can ea 

The higher fat or protein item in the evening looking like, you know collagen protein or like a spoonful of almond butter. Some people juice sweet potatoes your snack down.

Yeah, right exactly. 

And so then you can test and then you can see because a lot of this around sleep to is starting to kind of it’s like a puzzle and pulling and seeing what is really at the source of what’s not working for you and these are some of the common ones so then when so if you then add unify that you’re having a little less wake-ups when you do that then we don’t want to always have you having to take you know, almond butter whatever before bed for Infinity. So we want to instead then shift to okay. So if we’ve established that’s part of what’s not working. How can we balance blood sugar throughout the course of the day? So we’re having less of those problems in the evening. 

Wow, really smart stuff Molly. Thank you.  Right sleepisaskill.com Yep.

The sleep is a skill podcast on our website. We do have a couple of things to just help if you’re dealing with issues with your sleep right away. Then a couple things that you can do to take action one. We have a free downloadable PDF called the optimized bedroom. So 18 strategic, you know tips and tricks from low-tech and high-tech to improve your bedroom space to make a difference with your sleep results, including you know,

So having CBD nearby if that’s you know can help in the process among many other things you can do. So the downloadable PDF is there and then that also signed you up for a Weekly Newsletter. If you couldn’t tell I’m pretty obsessed with this topic, so it’s called Molly’s Monday obsessions. So every Monday for the last I don’t know like a hundred and twenty-five Mondays or something, you know will drop the kind of most interesting things in the world of sleep and it’s really exciting time because there’s so much in the realm of A sleep Tech and things that you know more studies that are coming out and more information that we can kind of learn from to improve our own sleep and really make it I think a really fun. This is how nerdy my levels are fun are fun game to to improve this area, which I think is really just yeah, it would be fun for people to do it. Exactly exactly and then if you are clear that things are just not working for you. We do have sleep. It’s on there so that you will get real live people, you know kind of responding around what’ 

happening with your sleep. And we do have small group cohorts and online courses and one-on-one options to if you want to really dive in deeper, that’s great. I really appreciate it. 

And I love the passion that you have for this topic and it’s something that you know, I have not suffered a lot of this in my lifetime fortunately, but when I have it’s been really really bad and I my wife has gone through periods where it’s been really really bad so I know, I can sympathize with the people who are listening and hopefully I’m sure you’ve given him a lot of great advice here today and I hope that anybody out there that is listening.  We’ll check out sleepisaskill.com if they’re looking for help. So thank you Molly and you have a great day. It was great meeting you I’ll send you an email later and let’s stay in touch.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate this and I love the work that that you guys are doing for, you know, so many people it’s make such a big difference.

And yeah, I appreciate being connected. Thanks so much. Have a great day. Thank you. You too. Bye.

Thank you for listening. Today’s Show always brought to you by Magic ImmuneATea available at PackedWithLife.com a mushroom tea that tastes great. Try it Magic ImmuneATea PackedWithLife.com.

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